I believe Johnson honest over Partygate probe, says minister

It’s been a wild week.

And it wasn’t clear this morning that our politicians are very comfortable poring over the recent past.

The cabinet minister, Chris Heaton-Harris wanted to suggest that the messages from Matt Hancock published by The Telegraph in the last few days are little more than glimpses of what was on Hancock’s mind at any one time during the pandemic.

The tricky thing is that the newspaper, the opposition, and some of the public may reach different conclusions, looking at a group of senior politicians and officials talking glibly and politically brutally about what was going on.

Fraser Nelson, one of the few people to have seen the whole cache of messages told us that there were days more of material to come.

Much as the Conservatives might wish it, it's not going away.

But the bigger practical problem for ministers in the next few days may be explaining practically how their new plans for laws to cut the number of small boats crossing the channel will actually make a difference.

There clearly is real public concern and demand for action, but as allies of the former Home Secretary, Priti Patel point out, very similar laws are there on the statute books.

It’s making them work that is perhaps the real challenge.

From a political point of view though for Number 10, the legislation that is likely to be published in the next few days will, they hope, illustrate that Sunak is doing something, whether that "something" makes a difference is a test that he’s set himself.

Questions will persist for Labour too about the hiring of Sue Gray, the well respected Whitehall enforcer. Jonathan Ashworth, the shadow work and pension secretary, told us he didn’t know when conversations between Gray and Keir Starmer had begun.

This all matters, not because there are any doubts about her ability, but because the civil service is meant to be completely neutral.

Naturally, the rules stipulate that means not talking to the opposition without permission from Secretaries of State.

Until the "hows" and "whens" of their contacts are clarified, the party’s opponents will continue to poke.

Speaking earlier to Laura Kuenssberg, Northern Ireland Secretary Chris Heaton-Harris said he believes Boris Johnson did not mislead Parliament over Partygate, calling him an "honest man".

As we now know, the Privileges Committee has said Boris Johnson may have misled Parliament multiple times over Partygate.

However, Johnson has said he never "knowingly or recklessly" misled MPs about lockdown gatherings in Downing Street. He said he was confident he would be cleared by the committee and is set to give evidence to the committee later this month.

Speaking to the BBC on Friday, Johnson said he did not "know or suspect" that events broke the rules when he spoke about them in the Commons.

Johnson added that "after 10 months of effort" the committee had not produced evidence "to suggest otherwise".

"I didn't mislead the House, and I don't believe I'm guilty of a contempt. I think that this process happily will vindicate me," he said.

Just joining us or need a quick recap? Here's what we heard on the show:

On Partygate...

• Northern Ireland Secretary Chris Heaton-Harris says he believes Boris Johnson did not knowingly mislead Parliament over Partygate, calling him an "honest man"
• Labour's Sam Tarry says some ministers' "hypocrisy" has "undermined the government"

On the Matt Hancock WhatsApp leaks...

• Labour's Jonathan Ashworth says people will be "deeply troubled" by the messages, and they need to be examined by a proper inquiry "which we need to get on with"
• Heaton Harris says: "I think viewers would expect politicians as human beings would express things in human ways" and there was no playbook for fighting the pandemic

On Labour appointing Sue Gray as chief of staff...

• Ashworth says "she was always going to be on the list" and it's a "good thing" she is going to work for Labour. He says he doesn't want to speculate on whether, as a civil servant, she got permission for conversations with the opposition

On small boats crossing the Channel...

• Heaton-Harris said he had not seen the government's proposed legislation on small boats but said a full "arsenal" of measures is needed, including cooperation with European counterparts, development aid for the countries people are trying to leave, and a crack down on people smuggling

On online safety...

• We heard from bereaved mother Judy Thomas about her struggle for information. Her 15-year-old daughter Frankie took her own life after accessing online content about suicide
• Baroness Beeban Kidron said the current situation is "inhuman" and she has proposed amendments to the Online Safety Bill which would give coroners more power to obtain data from tech companies

On Scottish Independence...

• SNP leadership contender Ash Regan said she plans to set up an independence convention with other pro-independence parties and civil society, and a commission to create infrastructure for independence

After Sam Tarry's appearance on the show this morning, let's take a look at why he was sacked as a transport minister by Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer last year.

Last July, Tarry - who was then Labour's transport spokesman - gave media interviews from a picket line at London Euston station while rail workers were on strike, in which he said he was "here as a shadow transport minister backing transport workers who are on strike".

The Ilford South MP also told Sky News: "Every worker deserves a pay rise that is in line with inflation".

Starmer later said he sacked Tarry for doing interviews "without permission" and "making up policy on the hoof".

Left-wing supporters of Tarry added the Labour leader fired him for joining striking rail workers on a picket line.

Responding to his dismissal at the time, Tarry said it was "a real shame" and argued the "vast majority" of people would be supportive of workers going on strike.

In October, he lost a battle to keep hold of his London seat in the first deselection of a Labour MP for more than a decade.

The vote by party members means he will not stand as Ilford South's Labour candidate at the next general election

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Kuenssberg asks for the panel's final thoughts as the show draws to a close.

Fraser Nelson says it is an "outrage" that so many of the conversations during the government's handling of the pandemic happened on WhatsApp, while highlighting the messages show what is not there - such as the science and evidence behind the government's decisions.

Sam Tarry agrees it is a "dereliction of government" that they made decisions on WhatsApp during the pandemic.

Tarry is also asked about his future as a Labour MP and whether will he stand again following his deselection in the autumn.

He says: "I'm absolutely challenging the integrity of that result and I fully intend to be standing as a Labour candidate at the next election."

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SNP leadership candidate Ash Regan is now speaking. She is asked about her plan for Scottish independence.

She says the speed at which Scotland moves to independence is important. She says she wants to focus on the priorities of the people of Scotland - such as NHS recovery, net zero, the cost of living crisis and access to the single market.

She says she sees Scotland being able to govern its own affairs as "crucial".

She says as first minister she would set up an independence convention, for all the pro-independence parties, civil society, academics and businesses as "unity" is needed "in order to make this work".

She says she also wants to set up an independence commission - a body that will be tasked with planning for independence and creating the infrastructure to get Scotland ready for it.

Asked repeatedly about what she would do practically to bring a referendum about, she speaks about "each and every" election - both general and Scottish elections - as tests of public opinion.

She says everyone would be clear what the people of Scotland were voting for - to get the governments in Edinburgh and Westminster together to negotiate.

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The panel is now discussing the Online Safety Bill and giving their thoughts, following the emotional chat with Judy Thomas.

Sam Tarry says: "What is ironic is the companies who make billions of pounds out of connecting people together actually turn out to be faceless corporations stonewalling parents who are grieving. These social media companies need to be held accountable."

While talking about the Online Safety Bill, Fraser adds: "This is territory that politicians themselves don't understand."

Hannah Fry - who works with technology a lot - also says it's hard to consider whether the government can grapple with the big issue of modern technology and its proposed bill.

She says: "If you don't have a technical background and you don't understand the nuance of these questions, it's hard to come in and take a view on."

She adds that algorithms and the "way they are changing the structure of our society" are not criticised and questioned in "quite the way they would if they were more transparent".

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Ash Regan, who is joining Laura Kuenssberg next on the programme this morning, is one of three candidates competing to replace Nicola Sturgeon as first minister of Scotland.

A former community safety minister, Regan is best known for quitting her government post in protest over gender reform legislation.

But the 48-year-old has also gained some prominent supporters in the legal industry thanks to her engagement with them during the Covid pandemic.

Regan, who has been MSP for Edinburgh Eastern since 2016, says she would ditch the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill.

And she has called for an independence convention to "create a new vision of an independent Scotland".

She has also thrown her support behind the idea of using a future election as a "de facto referendum", saying that pro-independence parties winning over 50% of the vote would be "a clear instruction that Scotland wishes to be an independent nation".

This is a harder position on independence campaigning than either of the other candidates, who favour a more cautious approach.

You can read more about all three candidates here.

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Baroness Beeban Kidron is now speaking - she says "we're stuggling to keeep a dry eye" listening to Judy's story.

"She has fought valiantly," says Kidron. "The inquest has opened and closed without the information being given to them."

She says: "We have to have a proper formal route for parents and for coroners to get the kind of information we need to see."

Kuenssberg says the BBC has contacted the tech firms involved Wattpad say they sent a robust statement to the coroner, while Meta say they have been in touch with the family and want to be as helpful as they can at this time.

Asked whether tech firms are being asked to meet impossible standards, she says she doesn't accept it. She says the firms are "largely sympathetic" and her amendments are "very practical".

The bill gives a lot of powers to Ofcom, she wants the coroner to have the powers that Ofcom has put at their disposal.

She says her inbox is full of bereaved families seeking data and the situation is "inhuman".

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The show moves on to the new topic of social media and the dangers of young people using it.

Kuenssberg speaks to the mother of 15-year-old Frankie Thomas who came across content online at school about how people can take their lives and sadly she did.

Her mother Judy is now campaigning for more support and for families to get more information from big tech companies about what might have gone wrong.

She says: "We were really careful with Frankie as she had special needs and was vulnerable and we were absolutely at a loss - we didn't realise Frankie had left a note, as police found it when they came to the house and she mentioned someone on there who we had no idea who he was."

She adds it took a year to start getting to the bottom of some of the reasons.

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Ashworth is now asked about the upcoming budget and whether the government is going to "nick" his plans to get over 50s back to work.

He says he'd be delighted if they took on his welfare reform plans.

He talks about his plans to reform sickness and disbility benefits, and says there are a million young people who are workless who need support and to be required to take on training opportunities.

"I really hope they do take up my plans which are about giving people hope and confidence to get Britain back to work." he says.

Ashworth is now being asked about Sue Gray's new position in the Labour Party, which Kuenssberg says some civil servants and people in government thought was "absolutely jaw-dropping".

When asked when Gray's conversation's with Starmer began, he says she "was always going to be on the list" as he has been looking for several weeks for someone to fill the role of Chief of Staff.

He is asked whether she got permission to have conversations with the Labour leader, which Kuennsberg says could have broken rules - as she is in the "neutral" civil service and having secret meetings with the opposition - but he doesn't want to speculate.

Ashworth concludes by saying it's a "good thing" she is going to work for Labour.

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Labour's Jonathan Ashworth is the next guest, and he's initially asked about Eat Out to Help Out.

He says "we obviosuly had concerns about all kinds of things". during the pandemic.

What we've seen in the WhatsApp messages, many people will be "deeply troubled" by what's been revealed.

He says all of these messages need to go to a proper inquiry, which "we need to get on with".

On Eat Out to Help Out, he says he does "totally understand" why the government wanted to help the hospitallity sector.

But he says we now know Hancock thought infections were worse in places like Leicster, Bury or Bolton because of that scheme.

Heaton-Harris is now being asked his thoughts on whether former prime minister Boris Johnson misled Parliament over Partygate.

He says: "There are four occasions where he may have done that" - before emphasising the word "may".

He adds: "I believe him to be an honest man and he did not knowingly misled Parliament."

Kuenssberg asked Chris Heaton-Harris about the new proposed legislation on small boats - saying the new laws are almost identical to the old laws.

He says he's yet to see the new laws, so "we can't authoritiatively say they are the same".

He says we need a full range of things in our arsenal to stop people trafficking and illegal migration.

He says this involves proper conversations with European counterparts, to ensure people are held in the first safe country they come to, as well as international development aid to improve situations in the countries people come from.

He says legislation is part of it too, and it's something "we need to get right".

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Shown a graph showing asylum returns have gone down, he says people in his consitutency will be upset with what's in the graph.

He speaks about the need for wider measures, including cracking down on people smuggling.

"I don't think there'll be tens of thousands of people coming if we get this right," he says, "certainly illegally".

As we’ve been reporting, former Health Secretary Matt Hancock is back in the headlines after thousands of his WhatsApp messages were leaked to the Daily Telegraph.

He’s hit out at the journalist Isabel Oakeshott and accused her of a“massive betrayal and breach of trust”.

In a statement released on Thursday morning he said: "When I heard confused rumours of a publication late on Tuesday night, I called and messaged Isabel to ask her if she had'any clues' about it, and got no response.

“When I then saw what she'd done, I messaged to say it was'a big mistake'. Nothing more.

“I am also sorry for the impact on the very many people - political colleagues, civil servants and friends - who worked hard with me to get through the pandemic and save lives.

"Isabel and I had worked closely together for more than a year on my book, based on legal confidentiality and a process approved by the Cabinet Office. Isabel repeatedly reiterated the importance of trust throughout, and then broke that trust.”

He also disputes claims he rejected expert advice on Covid tests for people going into care homes in England at the start of the pandemic.

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Chris Heaton-Harris is now being quizzed on the messages as he is asked about whether he is comfortable with the tone of conversation in the messages sent by different ministers at the time.

He says: "I think viewers would expect politicians as human beings would express things in human ways.

"I don't think you would find a politician who wasn't afraid at the beginning of lockdown when we had no idea what the pandemic was going to be. These revelations today were from when there were no vaccines."

He says the messages give "a partial account of what was going on" and a view into the "psyche of Matt Hancock, rather than into the actual decision-making."

Heaton-Harris goes on to say there was no "playbook" for fighting the pandemic and the government was doing what other countries were doing.

The conversation then moves on to the prime minister's plan for small boats.

On Partygate, Nelson says what has emerged shows there was an incredibly flippant atmosphere in government.

He says the hypocrisy of not following the govrnment's own rules was "what did for Boris Johnson".

Fraser disputes suggestions from the Tories that Sue Gray is biased. "Absolutely not, the parliamentary inquiry has found just the same. The facts are the facts," he says.

What we now see is evidence of this toxic culture, they were being incredibly gung-ho - they ended up incredibly comfortable with huge powers they gave themselves, at the same time as they themselves were behaving in a terrible way.

Hannah Fry says this cherry-picked series of messages skews the idea that at the time a lot of people were very compassionate and did the right thing.

Tarry says he called for harsher lockdowns at the time and the hypocrisy has totally undermined the government.